Kishori Koch loved to organize her bedroom as a child. She would rearrange the furniture and think of ways to create more space to make it more comfortable. But she never imagined it would become her profession. Today, as a   holistic wellness professional , Kishori helps her clients find more room both internally and externally. Based on her two pillars of beauty and deliciousness, her goal is to tailor spaces to people’s needs, by exploring “what’s frustrating them about it, what their dream would be, how they’d love to see it, how they want to feel.” In the last episode of Season 3 of the Speaking of Phenomenal Podcast , Kishori, who was   featured  in the original 52 Phenomenal Women Project in 2019, tells host Amy Boyle her non-linear story and how living in Italy for 17 years, practicing meditation and yoga and her experience in the arts informed the professional she became. But like many women, her trajectory and interests surpass one single occupation. “There is so much sadness, stress and tension in the world,” she told Amy during the episode. “How can I be a part of the solution? How can I be part of lifting up the vibration, lifting up people’s spirit, helping them move with more ease through all of this chaos and challenges on Earth?” Her willingness to help others find peace led her to study a subject most of us avoid: death. She obtained a death doula certification and started supporting people about to lose their loved ones. The topic seems to be taboo in the U.S. But Kishori wants people to feel comfortable thinking, reading and talking about it. Because it is going to happen. Kishori believes clearing out our surrounding spaces helps us clear our inner spaces, too. Maybe we could set a simple challenge: Let’s ask ourselves - what are the things I want to clear my life of? Outside and Inside. And then we build a plan to make that happen, one step at a time. Find Kishori on Instagram:   https://www.instagram.com/ms_mona_brown LinkedIn:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/kis Carolina Baldin is a freelance journalist from Brazil. Having worked in law, policy and regulation, she is passionate about everyday stories that illustrate larger issues. She graduated from a master's program at Northwestern University in 2023 and became a guest blogger on the " Speaking of Phenomenal" podcast  blog in March 2024.

When was the last time you felt energized and grateful after a busy week, not knowing how it was possible that you finished everything (or almost everything) you needed to do?  Host Amy Boyle has a lot to say about it. In this solo episode , she shares her experience juggling a trip to Wisconsin , another to Minnesota, another to Champaign, attending the Democratic National Convention  and wrapping up the quarter as a lecturer at the Medill School of Journalism . Like many of our guests during this season, Amy treats this personal experience as a story worth telling. As a narrative that can help others.   She reminds us that busy times are good moments to learn not only from the experiences themselves but from the way we handle them. Do we know how to make the most of our time with others? In the middle of what feels like a storm of activity, do we make time to meditate on the things we are doing and the meaning of it all?  Amy has a new project. And it was born last week, right during that hectic week. Probably the most hectic of her year. She worked on the idea while in St. Paul, Minnesota with Alessandra ( S2 E9 ) and Kishori , (who you will meet in next week's podcast) and matured during a purposefully slow travel back to Chicago (more than seven hours, by the new Amtrak Borealis train line) .  She can’t tell us much about the project but said it’s something worth looking for.  “Every moment, no matter how chaotic, is a part of the journey,” she tells us. “Embrace it all, even the chaos, because that’s where change happens.” We all remember days or weeks that were busy and transformative at the same time. It could have been our positive approach at the time, or we were just lucky to be accompanied by the right people. Women know how to make the most of those moments.  Now it’s your turn— Yes, and ... In improv, 'Yes, and...' means embracing what comes your way and building on it. How will you turn your busiest moments into opportunities for growth? Share your most transformative experience with us! Audio edit for this episode by Geo Boyle . Carolina Baldin is a freelance journalist from Brazil. Having worked in law, policy and regulation, she is passionate about everyday stories that illustrate larger issues. She graduated from a master's program at Northwestern University in 2023 and became a guest blogger on the " Speaking of Phenomenal" podcast  blog in March 2024.

As a child, Juliana Zavala dreaded buying groceries with her mom. They had to walk one mile to the store, and her mother liked to stop and chat with every neighbor they met on their way.  But today, Juliana acknowledges those moments gave her much more than boredom. As the senior manager of elementary sports at Chicago Public Schools and an advocate for female athletes, she had a pivotal role in starting the girls’ flag football league in Illinois, with support from the Chicago Bears and the NFL . And she guarantees one of their athletes will be at the Olympics in 2028. Last December, the Bears honored her   with the 2023 Inspire Change Changemaker Award. Those trips to the grocery store required a lot of patience, but Juliana learned an important lesson: investing time in networking and sharing one’s experiences can change people’s lives. “That has been my career path,” she shared with host Amy Boyle during the latest episode of the Speaking of Phenomenal podcast.  “Picking people’s brains, trying to figure out, how can I become a better leader? How can I become a better administrator to make sure that other student athletes have better opportunities than I did?” Juliana, the daughter of two Mexican immigrants, was raised in Little Village, a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood on Chicago’s southwest side. She has four sisters and a brother but was the only one interested in sports growing up. She played soccer and eventually became a coach at UIC and an athletic director. She enjoys being “behind the scenes and making sure that others have a great experience.” Exchanging ideas has been part of her whole career. At the Chicago Public Schools, she is constantly in touch with other cities like Miami and Los Angeles to learn from their experiences not only with sports, but social and emotional education too. “It’s not just going out there and just playing games,” she said. “Sports is a tool to help kids guide them, and it’s their vehicle for their next chapter in life.” She put those same network efforts into helping start girls’ flag football in Illinois . Despite obstacles like finding proper spaces for practice and overcoming resistance from people worried about keeping other girls’ sports, Juliana persevered. “This has to happen,” she thought at the time. They kicked off the league in 2021. Juliana initially hoped to gather six to eight Chicago public league, but 21 played in the end. Today, the league has a total of 150 teams throughout Chicago and surrounding suburbs.  Besides leading the girl’s flag football league, Juliana is a mother of two boys, aged one and two years old, and has a very busy life. She often brings them to practice and games to show young women that motherhood is compatible with sports and professional life. “You can do both,” is the message she wants to leave. “You can be a mom and you can also be a leader.” As Juliana helps transform the sports landscape in Illinois, her behind-the-scenes work has changed a bit. She feels more comfortable passing unnoticed but knows that many girls see her as an inspiration and want to hear about her experience.  Juliana’s story invites us to look at our passions, then at our network, and think: where do I want to get? Who are the people who share my passions? How can we make a change together? Have you ever asked yourself these questions? Carolina Baldin is a freelance journalist from Brazil. Having worked in law, policy and regulation, she is passionate about everyday stories that illustrate larger issues. She graduated from a master's program at Northwestern University in 2023 and became a guest blogger on the " Speaking of Phenomenal" podcast  blog in March 2024.

Heather Eaton was a consultant at Deloitte when she received a proposal from the office of the firm’s CEO to spend six months as a stint for a nonprofit in Los Angeles. The company, called XPRIZE , specialized in giving prizes for whoever came up with innovative and impactful ideas, like cleaning the oil spilled in the Gulf Coast.  At the time, Heather had been seeking a deeper purpose for her work as a consultant and dealing with the frustration of not always being able to make a concrete impact through her work. After joining that nonprofit, she found the motivation she needed. She enrolled at Stanford to pursue her MBA, got a certification in public policy and social management and eventually became an entrepreneur focused on innovative  apparel such as bra-less clothing and clothes and accessories for adults who experience difficulty getting dressed so they feel comfortable and confident.    Heather and a classmate from Stanford launched a bra-less clothing brand after she graduated from business school. They closed the company in 2023, but she never forgot the lessons she learned from the experience and the meaningful connections she built. Her own business didn’t prosper, but she made herself available to companies in need of a better product strategy.  She was connected to Joe and Bella , a brand that offers adaptive apparel to older adults and people with special needs related to health conditions or medical procedures. As Heather said, most people have a Joe or a Bella in her life, and hers experience accompanying her grandmother as she aged made it easy for her to connect to the brand and deeply care about their mission.  Heather’s trajectory can be a lesson to entrepreneurs and people who want to make an impact through innovation. Throughout her career, she learned to pay attention to the opportunities presented to her, deeply considering if that path would lead her to the impact she wanted to make. Another thing, no less important: Heather believes entrepreneurs must find a healthy balance between ambition and collaboration. In her case, at the time she owned the bra-less company, she preferred to be less secretive about her business in order to be able to collaborate with others. She doesn’t regret that, and encourages entrepreneurs to see the connections they make as an opportunity to bring community.  “Diversity of thought is such an overlooked realm of possibility,” she told host Amy Boyle in the latest episode of the Speaking of Phenomenal podcast. And as Heather shows, entrepreneurship is more than starting a new brand. To be an entrepreneur is to embrace the plasticity of our lives. To love and improve the world. How could collaboration be out of it?  Tell us: what would you do to increase collaboration in your everyday life? Joe & Bella stylish, easy-dressing clothing for adults who are experiencing difficulties when getting dressed, whether due to age, a disability, chronic condition or recovering from an injury or procedure. Their clothes make dressing easier! If you have a Joe or a Bella in your life you can Save 15% off your order with Joe & Bella with code  AMYBOYLEPHOTOGRAPHY (Not sponsored, just raving fans!) Carolina Baldin is a freelance journalist from Brazil. Having worked in law, policy and regulation, she is passionate about everyday stories that illustrate larger issues. She graduated from a master's program at Northwestern University in 2023 and became a guest blogger on the " Speaking of Phenomenal" podcast  blog in March 2024.

It was the second and last day of a Zoom workshop for authors who were hoping to get published, and Debbie Weiss dreaded the moment the publicist would call her name. She was the last on the list. After two days of nine-hour sessions, Debbie, who has a background in accounting and never wanted to be a writer, wondered what was on her mind when she decided to share her draft. She seriously considered clicking “leave now.” Last year, after being an accountant and caregiver for most of her adult life,   Debbie , at 60, became an author and podcast host and, just before the year ended, shared her journey as a caregiver on NBC’s   The Kelly Clarkson Show . Her memoir “ On Second Thought... Maybe I Can ” brings personal anecdotes of her life caring for her father, son and husband. In the “ Maybe I Can ” podcast, informed by her past struggles with self-doubt, she encourages listeners to explore challenging paths and make brave choices. Debbie, a certified Success Principles trainer with Jack Canfield, also owns the online store “Sprinkle of Heart.” Her next book, “The Sprinkle Effect,” will bring practical tips on overcoming self-doubt, and it’s scheduled for release in November. Before Debbie could decide whether or not to leave that Zoom meeting, the author facilitating the event called her name. To Debbie’s surprise, her book was one of their favorites. She told them she had always been a “numbers girl” and never wanted to write. “You will never say that again,” the author told her. “You are a numbers AND a words girl.” Debbie decided to start sharing her experience as a caregiver when she was 50 years old. “I f not now, when?” she thought.  Like host Amy Boyle, who at the same age asked herself questions like, “Who am I?” she was eager to find meaning in the past to inform her future and impact other people’s lives. “I’ve been giving my life to everyone else, as I think many women do,” she told Amy during this episode. “And not that there’s anything wrong with that. But we also need to prioritize our own needs.” For Debbie, that meant overcoming self-doubt and doing things that, at the first moment, seemed unreasonable. Writing a book and starting a podcast were among them. With simplicity and the eyes fixed on the higher purpose of helping the audience, she gave it a try. “If you just take a pause and a breath and give it a second thought and say, well, wait a second, why can’t I do that?” she asked herself. “That’s when your life actually changes.” Debbie teaches us that it’s never too late to “get out of our little bubble.” And if we decide to stay there, “just know that’s what you’re going to get out of life,” Debbie reminds us. “And is that all there is?” Tell us: What was the last time you dared to do something challenging but fulfilling? Was it worth it? Carolina Baldin is a freelance journalist from Brazil. Having worked in law, policy and regulation, she is passionate about everyday stories that illustrate larger issues. She graduated from a master's program at Northwestern University in 2023 and became a guest blogger on the " Speaking of Phenomenal" podcast  blog in March 2024.

Twenty years ago, Dana Frost hired a life coach to assist her family while adopting two of her five kids. She found the help she needed and a   new career path . Dana spent three years on life coach training and started to educate other women on emotional well-being. Today, as a certified life coach and the host of the   Vitally You Podcast , she invites clients and listeners to pay attention to how their minds and bodies are connected and to seek the truth about themselves. During this episode of the Speaking of Phenomenal Podcast, Dana shares with host Amy Boyle her technique for conquering inner ease and explains how personal life crises involving her health, marriage and family informed the kind of professional she became. She and Amy met years ago at an event for women entrepreneurs and instantly became friends. Amy, the mother of four, and Dana, with five children, shared the struggles and joys of balancing family and professional life and making important choices every day. Dana developed the inner ease technique after years of training and testing its tools in her own life. She came up with five steps: tension test, embodiment, breath awareness, inner truth and the peaceful path, which she made sure to describe in detail so listeners could also practice: The tension test is about learning how our bodies react to mental and emotional distress and detecting our body language, which is different for everyone. Then, we are invited to connect with that body language (in a process Dana calls embodiment) instead of trying to solve the problem just in our head. This step consists of not only noticing the signs our body sends us but acknowledging them, trying to understand their meaning and taking action about them. The third step is paying attention to our breath and how it connects our minds to our hearts, visualizing the inhale and exhale flowing in and out from our heart center.  Then comes the truth step, which sounded the most exciting (and difficult) one to me. Here’s what Dana suggests: we should be honest with ourselves about our different roles and find out what beliefs cause us suffering. “How do I feel when I believe that? And what if I let it go?” The tricky part: we can only find our inner truth if we feel safe. “That’s a requirement,” Dana said. People feel safe in different places, physical or immaterial. Host Amy Boyle likes to go to her “tree house,” a space on her deck where she feels “like a seven-year-old kid.” Where is your place? Thank God, I know where mine is. The fifth and last step in the inner ease technique is the peaceful path, in which Dana invites people to “use” the truth they find about themselves as the necessary strength to move forward despite the difficulties they might encounter. “You can simultaneously have feelings that are depleting and still be in a state of inner ease,” she guarantees. “That comes from going through this process of being able to look at your own truth.” If we know who we are and where we are headed, overcoming obstacles becomes easier. These steps give us a lot to think about. Are you ready to start? Find Dana on   Instagram Carolina Baldin is a freelance journalist from Brazil. Having worked in law, policy and regulation, she is passionate about everyday stories that illustrate larger issues. She graduated from a master's program at Northwestern University in 2023 and became a guest blogger on the " Speaking of Phenomenal" podcast  blog in March 2024.

“Let me tell you what just happened!” is a phrase journalist and author Arionne Nettles has told her friends more times than she can remember. An oral storyteller since her childhood, she participated in oratory contests and memorized poetry as a kid. Last April, after years of  experience in podcasting, culture reporting and teaching journalism, Arionne, a Chicagoan, published her first book, “ We Are the Culture: Black Chicago’s Influence on Everything .” In this episode of the Speaking of Phenomenal podcast, she and host Amy Boyle – who also remembers telling stories as a kid, like the time when she “stole” her father’s voice recorder to register her friends doing “goofy” things – discussed current media trends, the challenges of promoting one’s work and Arionne’s most striking “a-ha” moments while writing her book. Arionne decided to write a book out of an academic aspiration. With time, it became a personal and cherished project for her. Not that she didn’t care about the idea initially, but she started feeling a special connection to the book only after interviewing people and digging deeper into how Black Chicagoans helped shape the U.S. culture. She discovered the global reach of John Johnson’s first publication, “Negro Digest.” She learned about the influence of the White Sox cap on the hip-hop culture nationally. She connected other states and cities to Chicago to explain, for example, who brought the blues to the city and how this music style changed to adapt to an urban audience. A mother and teacher, she sat down to write every night from 9 p.m. to 1 a.m. Passionate about media trends, Arionne reminded host Amy Boyle (and all storytellers) of the importance of paying attention to what the audience cares about. For her, people today pay much more attention to the content than the format. She encouraged all who work on stories or create content to transmit information using the means they know without worrying about whether it looks perfect. If the content is good, people will listen, read and watch it. More recently, Arionne learned how to use this rule beyond storytelling: she applied it to promoting her book. Without fearing what people would think, she allowed herself to be creative and used all the means available to her (the ones that cost money and the ones that are free) to spread the word about her book and make people interested. “I don’t care if people say, ‘she’s doing too much,’” she thought at the time. “You have to lean into your confidence, lean into your own ideas, and just do it.” She hired a videographer and a photographer, put her hair up and picked the dress that felt right. She ordered custom-made gift bags. “I am my best marketer, and I know that,” she told host Amy Boyle. Arionne’s bold approach tells us a lot about believing in our work and the stories we want to tell. Be they stories about ourselves or others. Traditional journalism stories or the narrative of our lives. How can we improve how we tell them? Do we genuinely believe they are worth telling?   Find Arionne Nettles on   Twitter  and   Instagram Website:   https://arionne.com/ Carolina Baldin is a freelance journalist from Brazil. Having worked in law, policy and regulation, she is passionate about everyday stories that illustrate larger issues. She graduated from a master's program at Northwestern University in 2023 and became a guest blogger on the " Speaking of Phenomenal" podcast  blog in March 2024.

I recently had the pleasure of joining Charlie Daly on his podcast, Notes from a Ghost . Our conversation covered a wide range of topics, from the importance of play in fostering creativity to the power of human connection in photography. It was an engaging and insightful discussion, filled with valuable takeaways. Charlie and I both emphasized the necessity of stepping away from screens to truly connect with our creative side. In today’s digital age, it’s all too easy to get lost in a mindless scroll, forgetting to pick up a pen or camera for days. We agreed that real creativity often blossoms when we disconnect from technology and engage with the world around us. We also touched on the gear vs. creativity debate. While the right tools can enhance your work, it’s crucial to remember that the best camera is often the one you have with you. Creativity is about seeing the world through a fresh lens and capturing the essence of a moment, regardless of the equipment you have on hand. A highlight of our conversation was my 52 Phenomenal Women  project . Sharing stories of incredible women and witnessing their vulnerability was an incredibly rewarding experience. It taught me the power of listening and the importance of celebrating others’ achievements. If you’re interested in hearing more about my journey as a photographer and my thoughts on creativity, check out the Notes from a Ghost  podcast . I’d love to hear your thoughts! What are your thoughts on fostering creativity? Do you agree with the idea of taking a break from screens? Let’s chat in the comments! -Amy

Katherine McCord was a child when she first learned about Human Relations. Her mother worked in HR recruiting, and they often played HR together. At age five, Katherine fired her mom, who was proud to see that “her little five-year-old had this much gumption.” But another specific teaching from her mother—one that has more to do with humility than gumption—informed Katherine’s career and approach to HR. She has always been a lousy artist and, to this day, doesn’t know how to draw a snowflake. But every time she finished one of her unintelligible drawings as a kid, her mom would say: tell me about this. It’s a simple sentence that Katherine, an HR and neurodiversity expert, wants to imbue in her clients as a pivotal step to creating more efficient and happy workplaces. “Society is moving forward, but it’s at a glacial pace when it could be racing towards the future if we would all just communicate a little bit better,” she told host Amy Boyle in the latest episode of Season 3 of the Speaking of Phenomenal podcast. Katherine believes breaking the ego and listening to co-workers with openness and curiosity can transform toxic workplaces. By listening and asking honest questions, it is easier for people to find common ground and continue to pursue the same mission. “People get so distracted about how we get there and this and that and other little, tiny silly details,” she said. “The mission is the thing.” She also described the notion of universal design and how its flexibility fosters mental wellness and inclusion. “When somebody says, ‘this doesn’t work for me,’ they’re not insulting your work. They’re not even saying that you’re wrong to do it your way. They’re just saying, this doesn’t work for me.” She cited the successful example of Hewlett Packard, which developed a program centered on neurodiversity and allowed employees to have different work styles: some people used yoga balls instead of chairs, and people worked different hours. The team became 33% more productive.  “You have to leave room for different personalities.” She also advised us to stop trying to understand the “whys” behind people’s needs. “It is work. You are not entitled to anything personal about this other human.” She invites us to focus on what people need and how we can help. “Learn to break that ego mechanism and respond to curiosity because it will not only advance your career…your relationships become stronger, your ability to make decisions increases because your brain has more information on which to build these decisions and you just become happier and healthier.” What will you do next time someone says something you disagree with? As host Amy Boyle reminded us during this episode, this year will bring unique challenges regarding openness, curiosity and the ability to listen. Let’s not waste this opportunity. Carolina Baldin is a freelance journalist from Brazil. Having worked in law, policy and regulation, she is passionate about everyday stories that illustrate larger issues. She graduated from a master's program at Northwestern University in 2023 and became a guest blogger on the " Speaking of Phenomenal" podcast  blog in March 2024.

My excitement rocketed when Debbie Weiss , the powerhouse behind the "Maybe I Can" podcast , invited me on her show! As a fan of Debbie's contagious energy and commitment to lifting listeners up, I knew this conversation would be a wellspring of inspiration. We hit the ground running, and for those joining us for the first time, Debbie offered a gracious introduction. She highlighted my work as a multimedia journalist and photographer, a career I've poured my passion into. But the real star of the episode? My "52 Phenomenal Women Project." This project is my tribute to the incredible women who've left their mark on our world. From artists and entrepreneurs to scientists and everyday heroes, these women fuel my fire every single day. Sharing their stories with Debbie, and by extension, the "Maybe I Can" audience, was an immense honor. Debbie and I embarked on a journey to explore the power of storytelling. We talked about how hearing about the achievements of others can spark a flame within ourselves, a "Maybe I Can" moment that propels us forward on our own paths. True to form, Debbie didn't just leave us feeling inspired. We dug into actionable tips to help listeners conquer challenges and embrace their own potential. It was a conversation brimming with practical strategies and that signature "Maybe I Can" nudge that Debbie delivers so masterfully. If you're feeling stagnant or unsure of your next step, this episode is your call to action. Join Debbie and me as we unveil the possibilities waiting to be unearthed within. Remember, the journey to a life overflowing with "more" – more joy, fulfillment, and all the good things – begins with a simple "Maybe I Can." And who knows, maybe your story will be the next one to empower others! So, crank up the volume,  listen closely , and let's unlock the phenomenal within, together! -Amy

We all have experienced discontentment with the way we express ourselves. It might have happened during a professional meeting, a family discussion, a social gathering or a simple conversation with a friend. The situation (or the multiple situations) might have been more or less traumatic, but, in any case, we wish we had done better in transmitting not only the content of our message but the intention behind it: confidence, credibility, empathy, and so on. We wish we could go back in time to convey more precisely whatever we wanted to say and how we wanted to say it. We wish we had put more intention in our words instead of just trying to fill the silence that bothers us. Voice coach   Susan Murphy  helps people find their authentic voice. A former radio and television reporter and producer and the founder of   VOSOT , she teaches broadcasters, businesspeople, public officials and other professionals breathing and posture techniques to help them discover their natural pitch. Not the girlish voice many women incorporated when they were teenagers and never abandoned, but the true voice that “lives” in their diaphragm. Susan’s ultimate goal: to help people recognize and transmit their value to the world. “If your eyes are the windows to your soul, your mouth and your voice is the front door,” Susan told host Amy Boyle in the latest episode of the Speaking of Phenomenal podcast. During the episode, she shared concrete techniques that can help us find our voice and eliminate ticks that, despite frequent, don’t represent who we are. Everything starts with breathing exercises, which Susan, an already experienced reporter at the time, learned while rehearsing for a Footloose musical. Then, she teaches her clients to improve posture, pace and confidence. She teaches them to talk “boldly.” “You have to gain some confidence,” she told host Amy Boyle. “And that often can be dropping your shoulders, breathing into the belly, putting into words what you want to say and doing it… the more you do it, the more your confidence grows.” Susan also urged us to be more intentional about what we say and think while we’re saying it, which can impact all our relationships, not just professionally. This way, we can avoid saying things we don’t believe in just because we are angry or want to fill the void of silence. One last precious piece of advice:  when one lacks confidence, “the change has to come from a shift in your mindset… you need to know that what you contribute is worth it. It is worth listening to.” It is a matter of improving a little bit every day (Susan suggests 2%), using what we already have, avoiding habits we want to leave behind – “likes,” “uhs” and “ums,” for example – and incorporating vocabulary and good practices – such as pausing and listening better – we lack. “If we listen and speak deliberately and intentionally…it spreads into the world a little more kindness, a little more thought, a little more attention to the other person... It can cause ripples into all areas of life, and it starts with your voice.” What will your 2% be today? Carolina Baldin is a freelance journalist from Brazil. Having worked in law, policy and regulation, she is passionate about everyday stories that illustrate larger issues. She graduated from a master's program at Northwestern University in 2023 and became a guest blogger on the " Speaking of Phenomenal" podcast  blog in March 2024.

According to Dr. Debi Silber, most people who have been through betrayal in life don’t know what healing from this trauma means. She experienced betrayal within her own family and marriage and enrolled in a PhD program at 50 years of age to study healing mechanisms. During her study, she found that the post-shock moment where many people consider themselves to be healed is actually a trap full of repetitious narratives, self-indulging habits and mistrust. As the founder of the   Post Betrayal Transformation (or PBT) Institute , Dr. Debi, together with a team of coaches, educates betrayed individuals on the different stages of healing and guides them to a complete rebuilding of their lives and themselves. She is the author of “ Trust Again: Overcoming Betrayal and Regaining Health, Confidence, and Happiness ,” “ From Hardened to Healed: The Effortless Path to Release Resistance, Get Unstuck, and Create a Life You Love ”  and “ The Rebuild Roadmap: A Personalized Blueprint to Heal Yourself and Transform Your Relationships .” In this episode, Dr. Debi describes to host Amy Boyle how the five stages of healing progress, the importance of the spiritual and emotional components in one’s life and her own healing journey. Her personal experience and rigorous research invite all those suffering from betrayal to courageously examine themselves and identify what prevents them from moving forward. “Many people are afraid to heal because they’re afraid of outgrowing the known familiar, even if it stinks.” Dr. Debi explains that “Discovery Day” inaugurates what she calls the shock and trauma stage, which is marked by a “breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview.” After that, there is the stage where survival instincts emerge: practical decisions, self benefits and attachment to the unfairness of whatever happened in the past. Because individuals feel much better during this stage than in the previous one, it looks like the healing process is complete. But it’s not. Betrayed individuals still have two other stages to complete, which means leaving behind self-indulging habits, rebuilding trust in other people and reconstructing one’s worldview. In order to do this, one thing is crucial: willingness to adjust to a new normal and expose oneself to a certain discomfort to, eventually, heal completely. For one of her patients, moving past the “survival” stage helped cure a digestive issue that lasted for more than 70 years. For Dr. Debi, it resulted in her re-marrying her husband. “Betrayal will show you who someone truly is, ” Dr. Debi told host Amy Boyle . “It can also wake them up to who they temporarily became. Not that you need to do anything with that, but there’s potential if you want to.” Now,  in case you relate to any of this: What stage are you in? Is this the life you want to lead? Carolina Baldin is a freelance journalist from Brazil. Having worked in law, policy and regulation, she is passionate about everyday stories that illustrate larger issues. She graduated from a master's program at Northwestern University in 2023 and became a guest blogger on the " Speaking of Phenomenal" podcast  blog in March 2024.